tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post2925360111133688046..comments2023-12-13T11:16:14.115+00:00Comments on Exponent wargames: GW, a question of value...Paul Chanahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17944454332027086677noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-80630515373644968852009-10-20T12:08:31.929+01:002009-10-20T12:08:31.929+01:00Just come across your blog and I can't agree m...Just come across your blog and I can't agree more. What surprises me is that you're only understanding this now. The defining moment when I began to realise, as a child, that Games Workshop is, and always will be, about money [and not hobbyists as they like to clal them]: is when the plastic skeleton box set was split. Gone was the ability to buy enough for say 24 skeleton warriors, 9 cavalry and 1 chariot for about £12. They split it up so you had 8 warriors for £5, 3 cavalry for £5 and 1 Chariot for £5. A total rip-off. Gone was the buf=dget army you could buy in one go.<br /><br />I've just started to feel the urge to fall off the wagon after a good few years gaming-sober and the price of plastic is obscene. Discussing it the other day I was asked do they not do a budget range? That's what Imperial Guard used to be the cheap option now there's nothing.<br /><br />As for White Dwarf it's always been an advert although I've come across a few adverts for Grand Openings where there were some very real discounts to be had when places openened.<br /><br />Anyway I valued my current collection of Space Marines at around £370 so if I persue this renewed interest I'm all set but I'm still looking at £30 on paints and bits which is a stretch from the get go... Still I saw 40K in an independent retailers for £40, better than getting from source!40kaddicthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12763647828123242837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-70566403890022546002009-08-15T21:46:55.004+01:002009-08-15T21:46:55.004+01:00I think part of the reason GW showed profits was t...I think part of the reason GW showed profits was that they slashed a lot of expenditures.<br /><br />Your total profit = total revenue - total costs. So, you max profit (amusingly represented as 'pi' in Economics class) by slashing costs or increasing revenues.<br /><br />My understanding is that they've contracted as a company, which is a short-term strategy. I mean, sure, if they don't have to deal with so many GTs or stores, it's less operating expense. On the other hand, it's pretty much akin to falling back; you don't win a war by retreating.<br /><br />I do believe, though, that they're actually encountering competition for the first time. As folks have cited, there's AT-43, there's Warmachine, and it seems that you can build an army for cheaper. It might be smaller, but you can game faster.<br /><br />And that's the other thing I've seen as a theme: time. It takes 2-3 hours to get a round in.<br /><br />Back in the day when I played the (now-defunct) Wizkids Mechwarrior game, we'd get 3 games completed in 3.5ish hours, one evening during the week. (Granted, I came to hate the 'collectible' nature of the game, as it drove the price up, but the minis WERE pre-painted reasonably well).<br /><br />I'd like to see GW also hit the rules up and take better care of them. Lots of the problems (and I assume what makes some gaming evenings not-so-fun) can be fixed by just carefully writing the rules in the codices and big rule book.<br /><br />GW seems to have the attitude of "We sell models; the game is just incidental." Well, if other people sell neat models and a tighter gaming system, aren't you in trouble?<br /><br />I can't speak for the other games from personal experience, but I'm given to understand that Warmachine requires a FAQ and errat set the size of a small novel (or 2 inch thick binder) to run, but they might tighten it up. But, again, if they streamline the rules system...<br /><br />And the other thing that baffles me about GW models...some of their strategy is just wonky.<br /><br />You raise the price of Terminators to $60 for a box of 5...and then sell the Assault on Black Reach boxed set for $75. Even raised to $75, the AoBR set is a BARGAIN. Considering that you can bits-order assault termiantor arms from GW, and/or the weapon options for regular terminators, why would you <i><b>ever</b></i> buy a box of regular terminators? Or a regular dreadnought, or even a tactical squad box? Seriously.<br /><br />And then we've got codices that have languished for decades, like the Dark Eldar, and codices that have serious issues in the new edition (IE: Necrons, 'nids). I think the 5th ed ruleset is good, but they could still be clearer on some things, and they could at least look into the old codices and see if there's a need to update them, and clear up the rules.Raptor1313https://www.blogger.com/profile/16909802419382710809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-34125219525220298842009-08-10T21:10:25.629+01:002009-08-10T21:10:25.629+01:00It may take some time for me to get around to it, ...It may take some time for me to get around to it, but shoot me your email thru my profile and I'll send em to you when I get to it.Gotthammerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09192437339888042580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-4243176548675259922009-08-10T20:39:42.338+01:002009-08-10T20:39:42.338+01:00@Gotthammer, thanks for the link! I'd not noti...@Gotthammer, thanks for the link! I'd not noticed that before. <br /><br />Its a very kind offer about scanning the roads. If its not a total hastle I would really love a scan of the roads / templates etc :)<br /><br />Thanks<br />PaulPaul Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17944454332027086677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-2178508201666383272009-08-10T19:54:01.634+01:002009-08-10T19:54:01.634+01:00I'm not selling my set but you can download th...I'm not selling my set but you can download the Dark Future rules and a bunch of expansions in one PDF for the GW site:<br /><br />http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat1290025&categoryId=1100014&section=&aId=5300012<br /><br />They don't have the road sections or templates, but I do have a copy of the game and a scanner if you're interested.Gotthammerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09192437339888042580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-13261337470802004592009-08-10T16:17:13.845+01:002009-08-10T16:17:13.845+01:00Its not that they are individually cheaper, but yo...Its not that they are individually cheaper, but you dont need many of them and they are bigger / better cast and generally of a higher qualityPaul Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17944454332027086677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-67537232285748198072009-08-10T16:15:49.380+01:002009-08-10T16:15:49.380+01:00Is Hordes/Warmachine any cheaper? Their plastics ...Is Hordes/Warmachine any cheaper? Their plastics seem to be in the $5 per figure range. Or does the price reflect that the figures are rather large?<br /><br />http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/trollbloods/units/fennblade-unitChicago Terrain Factoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13120517237019460964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-19919088591373296592009-08-10T16:13:26.141+01:002009-08-10T16:13:26.141+01:00Also, Oni,
Whilst I see your point about our hig...Also, Oni, <br /><br />Whilst I see your point about our high taxes, to us in the UK it's all relative, and the taxes (which have always been high anyway) are the same across the whole consumer spectrum. Ultimately, I guess savings come in elsewhere for us.<br /><br />I don't mean that as a '<i>screw you, Johnnie Foreigner</i>' either, as I hope you can appreciate(!) - if anything it serves to reinforce your point. I suspect a US-based splinter company of GW would adjust amicably to your lower taxes, but I don't know how well it could function separately in this global market...<br /><br />Of course, I know <i>nothing at all</i> about economics...So feel free to shoot me down, but I'm punching above my weight.<br /><br />And mixing my metaphors.Admiral Draxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07476823273954165890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-75245496979737382072009-08-10T15:59:28.633+01:002009-08-10T15:59:28.633+01:00Hi oni,
I take your point about inflation increas...Hi oni,<br /><br />I take your point about inflation increasing prices, but i also think that GW have in general increased a lot above inflation. I mean for a start just take the example of the cadian box set as discussed earlier. Then you can compare to competitors - for example AT43, Infinity, Hordes / Warmachine are all cheaper and (IMHO) of better quality that GW's current output.<br />Remember we are in a recession and that inflation is currently negative (dont know about you, but i dont get any interest on my savings anymore, well nothing that can be counted as proper interest!)<br /><br />There is also the small fact that GW's profits rose 580% this year...<br />Read more here http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23724787-details/Games+Workshop+Rings+up+a+profit/article.do<br /><br />(and yes, I know that quoting the LES is not a good source, but if you google, you will see that there are plenty of other places posting the same info).<br /><br />The key things are when Mark Wells says:<br />“There are no silver bullets for growing sales. It requires a consistent focus on the basics of recruiting new hobbyists and using our games to teach them how to buy, build, paint and collect ever-larger armies of miniatures.”<br /><br />Translation: "We dont give a shit about the old guys, just the kids coming in and gouging their parents.Paul Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17944454332027086677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-2997498378598163142009-08-10T15:50:48.362+01:002009-08-10T15:50:48.362+01:00I too am a veteran. I started right at the time 2n...I too am a veteran. I started right at the time 2nd edition was released ('93-'94). The game has always been expensive and inflation has only made it worse, but IMO as time went on the quality of models and product offerings got better.<br /><br />The one topic that no one here has discussed or even bothered to mention is the UK government and the massive taxes it imposes and has raised excessively over the years. I find it hard to believe that GW raises their prices to be greedy, I do however believe they raise prices because they have no other choice to stay in business.<br /><br />Companies don't arbitrarily raise prices, there's always a reason. Increased cost of production, increased minimum labor wages, tax increases, to name a few. There's a larger picture that is not being looked at and we all unfortunately place the blame on GW.onihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00826913158717010235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-17706264350467172822009-08-10T15:23:39.727+01:002009-08-10T15:23:39.727+01:00GW is going to be in for a shock when the finally ...GW is going to be in for a shock when the finally realized that other companies have caught up to them in plastics production. The pricing of the Great Swords at $4+ per fig is not going to stand up to $1 per fig from Wargames Factory/Warlord Games. I give it another 2-3 years & GW will face multiple competitors selling products of equal quality at half the price.Chicago Terrain Factoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13120517237019460964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-66119157271675915982009-08-10T14:50:42.936+01:002009-08-10T14:50:42.936+01:00I've just started playing/modeling after being...I've just started playing/modeling after being coerced by friends for a number of years. Doing a bit of research, I bought almost my entire army of ebay for all the reasons you've already covered. I have taken the approach that I don't care if some of those models are from 1991 (yeah, I got some old IG for my kids really cheap). They are painted nicely and I'm playing for fun. I can see the price on the models going up more in the near future because everyone I play against locally plays a used or mostly used army. If more folks start dropping away for whatever reason, and more folks start picking up the used pieces, GW will see a noticeable drop in retail sales. That almost always causes a company to raise the prices. It's funny this forum topic should pop up. I was just shopping for alternate model sources in the correct scale that could be used. Sad state of affairs...Oh, it's you, Bob...https://www.blogger.com/profile/01787537433316114469noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-58224425879008486132009-08-10T14:08:20.888+01:002009-08-10T14:08:20.888+01:00You make a very good point about the "Codex c...You make a very good point about the "Codex cost" of units eriochrome, and one that i hadnt really considered properly before. Yet more gouging. It does make me wonder if the cost design is being influenced by the "price point" they want to make the product at.<br /><br />And if you change your mind about Dark Future, let me know :)Paul Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17944454332027086677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-33213628628119191322009-08-10T14:06:06.999+01:002009-08-10T14:06:06.999+01:00I have a copy of dark future but it is not on the ...I have a copy of dark future but it is not on the market. I think a lot of use agree with you on many points. One thing you forgot to mention was that the squads were getting more expensive in dollar terms this is being magnified by them being less expensive in game terms. So this makes army building cost increase essential as the square. Your units are 25% more and you need 25% more so your armies are is 56% more. Pretty crappy.<br /><br />As an adult I also only get out to play once every month or so(not including my new blood bowl league) so my army does not see that much action. I have been working on a second amry but since I barely use my first I have found that with the unit and build options in the SM codex I do not really need a second army.eriochromehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10377904099582258296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-91791194468528885532009-08-10T10:59:41.497+01:002009-08-10T10:59:41.497+01:00I have to say I'm quite stunned by the respons...I have to say I'm quite stunned by the responses! I was fuly expecting to be berated by everyone for my views, but it seems that my position is a fairly common one. <br /><br />The problem that i find is that 40K has now enetered a price point that I dont think i can commit to, especially with my army of choice being Guard and hence very expensive.<br /><br />I still play a lot of blood bowl, but again I've stopped buying the GW models, especially since i can get equivalent models by other producers at less than half price (check out tritex games, great prices, great models). <br /><br />Its just a shame that GW is driving us away...Paul Chanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17944454332027086677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-63741650259035193332009-08-10T10:11:44.471+01:002009-08-10T10:11:44.471+01:00Mike at Santa Cruz makes an interesting point.
In...Mike at Santa Cruz makes an interesting point.<br /><br />In reality, I probably only actually play an actual game 3-4 times a year - entirely due to my rural location and lack of local gaming friends since moving here. <br /><br />I've scarcely bought any GW stuff for almost two years, and not only has that not really diminished my enjoyment of the hobby, it's also refocused my efforts. <br /><br />Now I'm in the position where - for the first time - a painted end is actualy within sight: gone is the deire to keep expanding and expanding my Guard armies, and that works very nicely in the wake of the sheer expense of the hobby these days. <br /><br />As for my consumer 'demographic' - well, like Paul, I'm 29, and like everyone I don't have much spare cash at the moment. I consider myself a veteran of GW stuff, but 85% of my model buying was done between about 2003 and 2007: I'd hate to be on the cusp now of going from new gamer to expansive veteran: that's cost an absolute fortune!Admiral Draxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07476823273954165890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-51627333707633623972009-08-10T07:59:58.024+01:002009-08-10T07:59:58.024+01:00I think you, me and most of the other bloggers hav...I think you, me and most of the other bloggers have to just accept that we have outgrown GW. I love the modeling part but never really play anymore. The game is extremely flawed and doesn't ever create a nice evening with friends. Much more fun to organize a hobby night instead of a game night. My approach to the hobby is to read the fluff and model around in that realm, everything else is just what it is: selling plastic.<br />Mike at Santa Cruz Warhammer<br /><br />ps: my next project will be to resurrect some 1st ed metal space orks and give them the royal treatment, just for fun!SC Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15258905153733166390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-1486212872374121572009-08-10T04:12:59.135+01:002009-08-10T04:12:59.135+01:00I've been steadily disappointed with what I se...I've been steadily disappointed with what I see as nothing more than money-grubbing on GW's part. When I first got into the hobby in 2000, many things were different: White Dwarf was worth reading and cost half as much; a squad box was 50% less in price; and Games Workshop supported the hobby with a 2-day Games Day, worldwide GTs, and a Summer Battle Tour with a Bitz Wagon.<br /><br /><br />Many people will site the number of options and bitz that you get in their new kits as something worth the higher price. My point is that the $50 Leman Russ still makes only one tank. Sure, options are great, but the fact remains that your army doesn't get 25% larger with the 25% increased cost.<br /><br />I think GW has made a cost-benefit analysis to abandon veteran gamers. Maybe they think when the current economic climate blows over, we'll all come back in a few years when they start to re-introduce the stuff that's fallen by the wayside. I think they've made a terrible mistake.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-2807801627803933962009-08-10T02:15:34.628+01:002009-08-10T02:15:34.628+01:00I have to agree with you.
Prices have gone up on ...I have to agree with you.<br /><br />Prices have gone up on some things...now, to an extent, I know prices go up over time because of inflation and ECN 101.<br /><br />On the other hand, the price for something like the Russ went up about $10 (or it's 125% what it was) and they pulled out the accessory sprue.<br /><br />I have to agree with Drax on White Dwarf. It's essentially a hefty advertising rag. Ok, self-promotion is good, but there's not much other than pretty pictures in it, and the odd apocalypse datasheet.<br /><br />I'm also with Ron on the hobby supplies. I can drop the same money on acrylics and get 2-3x the product. I'm not surprised that GW brushes go splort either.Raptor1313https://www.blogger.com/profile/16909802419382710809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-88944435688647066372009-08-09T22:58:48.806+01:002009-08-09T22:58:48.806+01:00The example of price gouging I would like to share...The example of price gouging I would like to share with the group can be found on the square-basing side of the hobby in the form of the Empire Greatswords.<br /><br />This kit is a wonderful kit (from what I've seen in White Dwarf and online). It comes with all sorts of different pieces. In fact it is a 132-piece kit that includes 13 different heads, 12 different arms wielding two-handed swords, six variant bodies, and five different sets of legs. Amazing, huh? This is a perfect kit to customize your unit.<br /><br />Now, the box set makes 10 models. It costs $41.25/£24.45... for 10 plastic models! Additionally, you want at least 20 of these guys per unit. So that plastic unit costs $82.50/£48.90.<br /><br />I'm excited that the advances in plastic sprue technology allows for so many bits to be included in box sets. But I don't think that should drive the prices up to ridiculous levels. <br /><br />When I finally start an Empire army, I'm going to want to include a unit of Greatswords, but chances are I won't due to the cost. If I do, you can be sure that it won't come from a direct GW purchase, or from a purchase from my local hobby store--it will be from an online discount store, or from eBay.Shrink to Fithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02043861042459013518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-78867982906224989652009-08-09T22:45:07.152+01:002009-08-09T22:45:07.152+01:00Personally I buy mostly non-GW stuff when it comes...Personally I buy mostly non-GW stuff when it comes to modeling/painting supplies.<br /><br />I've only got one real army because of the cost associated with buying models these days.<br /><br />And as far as White Dwarf, I like the pictures but it's not more else for me.Space Hulk Enthusiasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03522498406401972832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5198490029213986758.post-42129409387163024282009-08-09T20:32:11.086+01:002009-08-09T20:32:11.086+01:00I try not to be a grumpy old man, but I am incline...I try not to be a grumpy old man, but I am inclined to agree, and your point about the Cadian plastics is the perfect example. That's a disappointment about their new brushes, too.<br /><br />Also, I have to agree with you about White Dwarf. I don't object to their self-promotion (it's what I buy into, after all) but it'd be wonderful if they made the content more interesting and extensive. There's a wealth of writing talent there, and <i>some</i> of the editors can even proofread: why not have more articles? More editorials? More columns? <br /><br />Mind you, at least the format's settled down for a bit. Over the last three years they've tried countless new formats and features - most of which sank with neither trace nor explanation.<br /><br />Hmmm. It's a shame that prices are hiked so rapidly. It's a shame that whilst the quality of the kits improves the prices skyrocket; and ultimately, it's a real shame that all the nice little bitz and extras (like tank accessory sprues) are no longer a given. Way to kick the veterans.<br /><br />GW-by-numbers, anyone?Admiral Draxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07476823273954165890noreply@blogger.com